you're going to destroy a fragile economy. you can't get there by taxing your way into it and you can't grow your way out of this. you have to have a blend. when you have leaders of parties and people from the administration saying i think it will be to the advantage of the democrats to go off the cliff or i think it will be advantage to the republicans to go off the cliff or the president to go off the cliff, that's like betting your country. there's stupidity involved in that. this is big-time stuff. >> let me ask you about a report that some republicans now are perhaps willing to see the tax rates rise to some degree on top earners in exchange for later getting a better deal on some of these spending cuts. but tieing it to that vote to raise the debt ceiling basically saying that debt ceiling vote is our point of leverage. do you agree with that approach? >> when they get to that, they'll do the same blood letting they did in august. that's the way that will be. but you can't get there -- the threats going back and forth, y